Monday, January 18, 2021

Comment on seminary training

I received this comment and thought it would be best to devote some attention to it. 

Others will know much more than I about the system of educating NAPARC pastors, but what I have seen is not very impressive. I know of a man who had no education beyond high school, who got an Associate degree in business from an online place that no longer exists, and somehow was accepted by a respected reformed seminary. He now has an MDiv, and gets to "pastor" a church. He, like many others, seems to believe that his sole purpose in life is to be studying. Then he "serves" his congregation by "preaching and teaching." This entitles him to a salary and to be the head of the "session," which makes all of the decisions for said tiny church, with no accountability to the members, although they give lip-service to the idea of accountability. The church has no outreach into the community, but is quite a comfortable little enclave for those who think that the church is a little mini-seminary/book club where the only hope for people is held tightly, inerrantly, and rather exclusively. Sermons frequently mention what the Catholics/Lutherans/Baptists/ people who don't study their Bibles like he does are getting wrong. I could say much more about how the church has accepted the idol of perceived scholarship in the place of elders as described in Scripture. But my original point is that these men are perceived as "educated", but truth is, many of them are seemingly not acquainted with the realities encountered by people who must hold to knowledge/skill sets in order to produce something of tangible value in the world to provide for their families and support the church. This ignorance would be fine if it were accompanied by a humility and kindness, but the church seems to love to put people who lack those qualities in leadership positions.

All of this affirms the scriptural assertion that "knowledge puffs up". I think stamping achievement onto men simply because they succeed at reading and regurgitating and communing with others that do the same is part of the problem.

I think there is a flawed system in place here. I've had many debates on this subject and am more convinced that this is a core problem in the church today. The Apostles were trained in a mentorship/apprenticeship model by Jesus. There is good evidence that the next generation of pastors were trained in the same sort of model - walking alongside the Apostles. At some point, however, the church "discovered" that the apprenticeship model wasn't working(!!) Pastors were not being properly trained in basic Christian truths, and thus an educational model was necessary. This led to the seminary model where pastors were given a base level of knowledge necessary to pastor a church. Our church history has been filled with examples of trying to find that right balance between the book smarts and apprenticeship model.

To add some insight into this, there is a book by Peter Colin Campbell, called The Theory of the Ruling Elder, or the Position of the Lay Eldership in the Reformed Churches. This book is public domain and available online. This book completely floored me. Campbell had access to the minutes of the Westminster Assembly. This is his understanding of what happened in the Westminster Assembly:
While the Grand Committee declare unanimously in favour of the institution of lay rulers in the Church, they carefully exclude from their conclusion not merely the term presbyter, in reference to lay rulers, but even that of elder, as liable to be confounded with "presbyter," and refuse to quote I Tim. v. 17, in regard to the office. The conclusions of the Committee are recorded thus by Gillespie and Lightfoot: — 

1. That Christ hath instituted a government and governors ecclesiastical in the Church. 
2. That Christ hath furnished some in His Church with gifts for government, and with commission to execute the same when called thereunto. 
3. That it is agreeable to and warranted by the Word of God that some others besides the ministers of the word be church governors, to join with the ministers in the government of the Church. Rom. xii. 7, 8 ; i Cor. xii. 28.

Some members had expressed a wish to rest the institution simply "on a prudential ground" — that is, on expediency — and some were opposed to the citation even of the two above-mentioned texts, although none except Dr Temple and Lightfoot voted for their being omitted. But the attempt of Whittaker and Gillespie, renewed the following day, to procure the citation of i Tim. v. 17 as applicable to the office of lay ruler, met with no success; and the conclusions of the Committee were sent in to the Assembly in the form in which we have given them above, with the following addition : "That in the Church of the Jews there were elders of the people joined to the priests and Levites in the government of the Church." 

The conclusions, or, as they were styled, "votes," of the Committee were brought up for the consideration and approval of the Assembly on the 14th November 1644, preparatory to their being transmitted to the Houses of Parliament; when, as Lightfoot tells us, "there fell a debate about naming church governors, whether to call them 'ruling elders' or no; which held a very sad and long discussion: at last it was determined by vote thus, — such as in the Reformed Churches are commonly called 'elders.'" Gillespie made a last attempt to obtain the recognition of the theory, and, with obvious purpose, moved that the Assembly itself should call them "ruling elders;" " but this," Lightfoot tells us, "prevailed not."* The battle of the presbyter theory had been fought and lost. 

* It would have been well had the caution happily exercised by the Westminster Divines in the citation of Scripture in reference to church government been shown on other occasions. The craving for express Scripture warrant, in matters where common sense is a sufficient guide, was natural in the position of the Reformed Churches, but it led sometimes to an unjustifiable and even ludicrous straining of the Word of God. 

* There is a blank in Gillespie's Notes, extending from the 25th October to the 15th November 1644. 

The following is the chapter on the subject in the 'Form of Church Government ' as finally authorised by the Assembly: — "Other Church Governors. — As there were in the Jewish Church elders of the people joined with the priests and Levites in the government of the Church, so Christ, who hath instituted government and governors ecclesiastical in the Church, hath furnished some in His Church, besides the ministers of the word, with gifts for government, and with commission to execute the same when called thereunto, who are to join with the ministers in the government of the Church, which officers Reformed Churches commonly call 'elders'. 

Nothing can be more significant than this sound and well-guarded language. Equally guarded and significant is that of the Confession of Faith in its allusion to lay rulers. It knows nothing of them as presbyters or elders in the proper sense. 

The conclusion of Campbell's book as that Gillespie et. al. returned to Scotland and misrepresented the position of the Westminster Assembly, thus establishing the Ruling Elder as an ordained office and through it, "Classical Presbyterianism", when Westminster came to the exact opposite conclusion.

There are definite conclusions regarding ruling elders, but consider what the implications are for the Teaching Elder.

  1. There is no warrant for "young" teaching elders. The name elder itself suggests age and wisdom, not youth and knowledge.
  2. There is an expectation that the church should see the fruit of their parenting, not have pastors with infants.
  3. There is an expectation of a life lived within a church and demonstrated faithful witness, not seminary training and a 25yo pastor.
  4. The Biblical model has always been people chosen from the congregation by the congregation and not candidates approved by the leadership and forced on congregations.
  5. The seminary model and cost/"benefit" of seminary training paid by the church lead to a push to train younger and younger pastors for a lifetime of ministry rather than, let's say, a 50yo man who has had a successful career and raised his children well.
  6. The church has fallen into [what the church claims!] is the failed messianic model of education where morality and character can be imputed through book knowledge.
  7. What does a 'plurality' of elders [pastors] mean when RP churches are often separated by hundreds of miles from the next-nearest RP church.

There is much more to say about this, but the more you think about the implications of what transpired in the quote, the more staggeringly we've fallen away from even Westminster.

To reference an earlier comment, as much as we may be upset with "Pastor McPedigree" - that model is so much closer to the Biblical model, and, I believe, we see much more faithfulness and pastoral qualities in the 2nd and 3rd-generation pastors who were raised under their father pastors and had essentially an apprenticeship. What we see in the young hotshot pastors is exactly what you've related. They cannot wait to wave over a congregation. They cannot wait for the adoration and obedience they see pastors command, and once they are in that position, the thought of pastoring -shepherding and walking with people - is the furthest from their mind.

The book, The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse also points to wisdom and Spirit-guided life experience as the hallmarks of the office of elder/pastor. These are things that cannot be trained in seminary.

The Reformed church likes to claim that study of the Bible in the original languages of Greek and Hebrew is necessary to be a pastor, but this seems to be mainly an Islamic or even old Catholic claim. The history of the church shows that there was an early effort to translate scriptures into the common languages of the day, and we still see that today. The Holy Spirit works beyond language, and thus claiming that a pastor must know Greek and Hebrew to be effective is more a slap in God's face than anything else.

38 comments:

Anonymous said...

by A. A. Phelps
Written in 1883
We are living in an age of shames and counterfeits. Satan seems to have abandoned the hope of crushing out the Christian Church by a process of undisguised hostility, and now seeks to destroy her efficiency by stealthily draining off her vitality, and robbing her of every supernatural element. He "transforms himself into an angel of light", and often assumes to be the special friend and guardian of the Church.

Craftily he infuses his deadly virus and inculcates his plausible philosophy, until the moral perception is obscured, the conscience is distorted, and policy runs nearly the whole ecclesiastical machinery. Thus a popularized religion, which costs nothing and is worth nothing, is readily accepted, while the old religion of the cross is utterly discarded. The consequence is, that there is religion enough, and Churchianity enough, but a great famine for real Christianity. We meet with thousands all over the land who, if catechized in regard to their spiritual condition, reply with much self- assurance that they are members of such a Church. They assume that the Church is an ark of safety; and once ensconced within her enclosures, all further anxiety ends. Let us try to unmask this dreadful delusion of the devil.

There is a difference, we may premise, between the real and the nominal Church of Christ. The former is composed of all true Christians. Its boundaries are therefore invisible, as no man can tell exactly where to draw the lines. The latter is composed of those who assume the Christian name and practice the ordinances of God's house. It is commonly called the visible Church, because its boundary lines are known. The epithet may apply to a single local society of a given denomination, or to the aggregate of local societies of all denominations. We use the term, in this paper, to designate the outward or visible Church.
1. Christ and the Church are not identical.
There may be ten thousand Churches, but there is only one Christ. Nor can all those Churches supply the place of our one, blessed all-sufficient Savior. A man may be saved without the Church, but he cannot be saved without Christ. A man may be in the Church and not be saved; but he cannot be in Christ without salvation. Sinners sometimes become members of the Church; but only saints are members of Christ. A person may live in the Church for years, with the old heart of carnality and selfishness; but "if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature".

The requirements of the Church are often wrong and ruinous; but the claims of Christ are always reasonable and right. The Church may become a sink of pollution; but Christ is ever the perfection of purity. The Church may be rent with divisions; but Jesus Christ is not divided. The Church may become terribly entangled in mysticism and error; but Christ is always the embodiment of light and truth. The Church may change her name and her nature; but Christ is "the same yesterday, today, and forever". The Church may be a crutch to walk with, but she is a poor Christ to trust in for salvation and eternal life.

Anonymous said...

2. Christian worship and Church worship are not identical.


Vast multitudes cling to some Church establishment as a drowning man would cling to a life-boat. They bow obsequiously to her priestly and official mandates, and imagine that the blind servility which they tender to the Church will be accounted acceptable service offered to Christ. The simplicity of the Gospel is lost in the imposing forms and glittering accompaniments of modern churchism. Splendid church edifices attract the eye. Splendid music charms the ear. Splendid prayers are addressed to the CONGREGATION. Splendid sermons please the fancy, and leave deluded sinners to slumber on. Church rivalry has achieved a glorious success, if success thundering organs, ostentatious dressing, theatrical singing, pointless praying, rhetorical preaching, careless hearing, and unscriptural practicing!

Much of the current worship is done by proxy. Lazy religionists surrender their sacred rights to others. They take it for granted that the preacher is on the right track, and readily swallow whatever may be doled out from the pulpit, without using their own brains in searching for the hidden treasures of truth. Thus religious ideas are transmitted from generation to generation, until tradition exerts a more powerful influence than the Bible in molding the sentiments of men.

There comes to be a fashionable faith, as well as a fashionable dress. To embrace a certain stereotyped circle of doctrinal views entitles a man to the claim of "orthodoxy"; but let him not venture one step out of the beaten track, if he would not be denounced as a deluded heretic! But few have the moral courage to question the decisions of the Church, much less to discard what she has labeled as "orthodox".

The verdict of a few leading denominations has thus grown up into a threatening tyranny; and the multitude cannot think of stemming the mighty tide. So they bow down in their narrow enslavement and worship this curiously- fashioned but pious-looking idol - "the Church!" Since all idolatry is an abomination to God, we have no more right to worship a church than we have to worship a golden calf! We rob the Lord of His rightful honor, and ourselves of the highest bliss of Christianity, by looking to the Church too much, and "looking unto Jesus" too little.

What can be done to deal a staggering blow to this cruel church/worship of the day, and at the same time give us more exalted and ravishing views of Jesus Christ? There is a grand failure to carry out the ultimate design, when the appliances of the Gospel result only in the production of Churchianity. Our perception, our prayers, our faith and our adoration must overleap the narrow precincts of the outward Church, and rise up to the eternal throne! "Worship God!"

Anonymous said...

3. Christian fellowship and Church fellowship are not identical.


The followers of Christ are called upon to "love one another with a pure heart fervently". Indeed, this is one of the Scriptural tests of discipleship. "We know that we have passed from death unto life because we love the brethren". All Christians constitute one family, and love is the golden tie designed to bind their hearts together around the common cross. But love is a tender plant that needs to be reared with a hand. Hence the many exhortations of Scripture to "consider one another" - to "be kindly affectioned one to another" - to "esteem others better than ourselves" - to "bear one another's burdens" - to exercise a forgiving spirit - to "let brotherly love continue" - to "endeavor to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bonds of peace". All such injunctions point out the danger of alienated feelings and poisoned affections, and show the importance of making a special effort to promote Christian unity and love. How disastrous are the results of not regarding these Gospel precepts!

Anonymous said...

Westminster Seminary California describes itself as training "specialists in the bible" in their recent fundraising blitz.

Dear Friends of WSC,

"We at Westminster Seminary California (WSC) remain committed to preparing “specialists in the Bible” who will proclaim the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ; the only hope for a fallen and hurting world."

This is lip service. Problem is that more often than not within the RPCNA and NAPARC at large they really do not actually see Christ as the only hope, when push comes to shove the defacto practice is that the institutional church rules or should rule the world and is the worlds "Only hope."

Which of course makes the ruling elders your "only hope."

Do not believe this lie from the devil.

Anonymous said...

I wrote the comment addressed here. Thank you to all those in the conversation for a safe place to discuss. I agree father/son apprenticeship could be a better model, but I've seen making bank on a prominent name, and then the father's exploitative methods can be passed down too. We're still dealing with the pain of the exploitation many years later. The system really has no accountability, other than people leaving.

Anonymous said...

The person I referenced in the comment being discussed was trained at Westminter, mentioned above. That is the kind of language he uses and the lip service he enacts in the church. I still believed that pastors were "competent to counsel," so I asked for his help with a very serious issue. He agreed to help, but then avoided doing what he said he would do. Then he allowed sensitive details about the situation to be shared at a session meeting with non-session members present. Session's response to us was that they weren't going to do anything about any of it. This is one tiny part of the story, but it illustrates what happens when all you have from leadership is words.

Anonymous said...

Yes! Sometimes I ask myself, "Should I just be continuing on "in my lot" that the church has assigned to me, following, even though I see bad things, and say that it's just the pain I'm meant to bear. But then I remember that Jesus is my mediator, not the visible church. If I flee from those who want to exercise tyranny over me,or simply do not care about me, does that change?
Scripture tells us to fix our eyes on Him so that we do not lose heart. It doesn't say to fix on the church. If a social group is trying to tell me that I'll find Jesus there, but what I find violates who He is as shown in Scripture, isn't that a false idol?
Isn't that taking His name in vain?

Anonymous said...

My experience is that these important exhortations are either used from the pulpit in a shaming way toward the congregation, or the congregation is given congratulations in general for doing these things when the pastor has been the recipient. We're told "If you don't love the brethren, it means your salvation is in question." The leaders can define "love of the brethren" however they want. For them, it mostly boils down to highly visible good works. I've never heard a sermon on not letting the left hand know what the right hand is doing. And I don't agree that they should be giving verdicts/judgements on the congregation from the pulpit. That is where so much of the damage is done.

BatteredRPSheep said...

This has been a great discussion. While the quote here is factually accurate, I question the tone and the conclusion. I think whenever I see something that says that I'm lazy or inadequate and I should try harder, it seems to be a legalistic message.

The cure for legalism is being filled and overflowing into others, not draining ourselves. Satan has brought authoritarianism into the church. Instead of knowing and worshiping our Creator, we worship the idol of the institutional church, and more specifically our leaders. We let them define what holiness is, instead of the Holy Spirit, and we do works to seek their approval and not God's.

The cure for legalism is not "try harder", it is "come to me and I will give you rest". I've spent the last five-ish years recovering from decades of spiritual abuse and trying to serve in my new, safe church has been emotionally draining until just recently. It had nothing to do with the new church and everything to do with feeling self-obligated to serve. When I had to step away, they were thankful for my service, not upset or angry.

BatteredRPSheep said...

Because the authoritarian church is, by definition, narcissistic, there is no end to the amount of physical and emotional energy they will drain from their members, and it will all be in the name of Christ.

Anonymous said...

Narcissistic authoritarianism and cultic mind control seem to be two sides of the same coin. Steven Hassan's BITE model has been instructive to me in recognizing abusive tactics by leaders. Our RPCNA pastor ticked the boxes for that. I had been taught through my childhood Baptist church that Christian churches couldn't be cults, so I didn't see it that way at the time. Two criteria I have now for a safer environment are in these questions:
1) Are leaders trying to "get between" me and God?
2) If the leaders have good words, do their actions match the words?

BatteredRPSheep said...

Took a look, it seems like the RP church checks all those boxes.

BatteredRPSheep said...

This is a horrible ethical violation and part of the reason why I think that Biblical Counseling is a sham. The BC's have not ethical requirements or licensure. Even if an LPC didn't help, if they disclosed your personal details, they could lose their license.

BatteredRPSheep said...

Father/Son meaning spiritual father... I think that Biblically, there is more the expectation that the children do not follow in the father's footsteps when it comes to ministry. Even in RP royalty, while it is much more common, it's by no means the family business.

BatteredRPSheep said...

The legalistic pastors look like Jeff Foxworthy in the pulpit. "If you don't read your Bible every day, you might be apostate." "If you don't put 10% or more in the collection plate each week, you might be apostate."

I feel like the fundamental product of the reformed seminaries is a puffed up man who knows how to sound authoritative and earnest. The authoritative air suggests spiritual authority and the earnestness suggests pastoral care, regardless of what is happening in the heart.

BatteredRPSheep said...

"and say that it's just the pain I'm meant to bear."

I had the same thought - should I spend the rest of my life bearing the pain of emotional abuse to keep the peace? Then I thought, if I'm receiving spiritual abuse from those who (theoretically) are much closer and in harmony with God, what does that say about God.

They are preaching a counterfeit gospel and a counterfeit God. God fills first before expecting a return. Even in the instances where there is first a test (like the jars of oil), the test is designed to increase faith and reward and not to punish. A church that demands and demands without blessing is a spiritual prison.

I finally got to the point where I realized I couldn't take any more abuse and I had to leave, whatever the cost. It turned out to be a reward. Even though I "feel" I'm not as close to God as when I was "checking all the boxes", still it's the real me I bring before him and not the image I thought the RP church wanted me to create.

Anonymous said...

These truths remembered will help counter the pernicious Sacerdotalism so prevalent in the RPCNA and in NAPARC in general.

1. Christ and the Church are not identical.
2. Christian worship and Church worship are not identical.
3. Christian fellowship and Church fellowship are not identical.

Beware of theological constructs and traditions that conflate these things, hence making a persons gateway to heaven men. Teaching as if holy doctrine what is actually the traditions of men.

BatteredRPSheep said...

I don't think it's so easy to discern. It's not as if the pastor gets up each week and says, "I'm the Holy Spirit-inspired, infallible vicar of Christ!" He may not even believe it in so few words, but the words, actions and attitudes that come from the leadership hint that it is the case.

As with many abusive situations. When you have to scratch your head or when you get a queasy feeling in your stomach about something a leader does... Don't squelch it. Try and figure out why it makes you uneasy.

Once you listen to your gut and start seeing the patterns, it's easier to understand that it is a false gospel.

Anonymous said...

In the RPCNA, the verse about "the keys to the kingdom" was used to say that the elders were somehow important in my salvation. I don't think I heard that mentioned in the PCA or OPC churches, not really sure, but what mattered was that we had carried everything the RPCNA had taught us into those churches, so it was part of our belief system. I know those denoms hold the eldership in very high esteem, but I don't know exactly how they view it. They don't seem to be able to look at the totality of scripture and arrive at a humble view of a foot-washing, self-providing, genuinely loving servant leader. When the Apostles didn't think they should "wait tables", they think they shouldn't either. And what you end up with is, even their "ministry of the Word", becomes mostly just an academic exercise. The thing is, the Apostles mostly managed to get themselves killed for their faith, so I don't think they were really what these guys are trying to be.
They aren't qualified to be therapists or counselors for mental health, but it shouldn't be too much to ask for them to care about people and show up for important things with a kind word of encouragement and an offer to pray. And to do that consistently. And to do no harm. And maybe let the resources of the church help somebody besides themselves on a regular basis.

Anonymous said...

"In the RPCNA, the verse about "the keys to the kingdom" was used to say that the elders were somehow important in my salvation." Yep. Just like Matt 18:20 in an RP sessions mind mean only the elders. More than just kind of important, over emphasized as a key to one's Salvation.
The key to authoritarian leaders is that they have a lay herd of sycophants around them constantly affirming what they say. The tiny little NAPARC churches are full of those sycophants.

Leave NAPARC and don't look back.

BatteredRPSheep said...

Yes, this seems to be part of the rising NeoCalvinism. The theology turns the "church" into the pastors/elders, makes members slaves and observers of the church and not part of the church.

I think RPCNA probably doesn't have the lay theological knowledge and has more entrenched authoritarianism, such that the pastors can be less guarded, perhaps, about their statements.

My current pastor is very astute about this - he says that much of the church is stuck in the OT model - the Holy Spirit only working in any visible way in the few - the Priests, the Kings and the Prophets. All others just worship by being fans in the stadium where these few operate.

The NT economy is "everybody plays" - the Holy Spirit is poured out, not just on the clergy, but on all Christians. But, as my pastors says, the OT economy is uniquely rewarding to the clergy in a way that the NT economy is not. So, there is strong temptation to preach the OT.

OT - Prophet speaks authoritatively for God
NT - we have the Holy Spirit to lead us in truth

OT - we must obey God's leaders if they speak truth
NT - we are Bereans - we listen to leaders, but test their words against the Bible and the Holy Spirit speaking in our heart

So, when we hear leaders thumping on their authority, gifting and our obedience, we are not hearing something congruous to the New Testament outpouring of the Holy Spirit. We are hearing someone who wants to limit and deny the work of the Holy Spirit for their own gratification.

Anonymous said...

I appreciate the validation of what they really are teaching. We're out of those churches, but the cognitive dissonance I have is real. It's hard, because once one accepts their claim that they are elders, as described in scripture, it becomes hard to argue with their interpretation. I wish I could remember exactly how it was explained- I just know it was this rather mysterious thing where the elders held the keys to the kingdom and bound things on earth, which were then bound in Heaven. Years later, I'm still dealing with, on one hand, having accepted that these were Godly, good, family men, above me, and looked upon by God with extreme favor- but on the other hand, conceited, uninterested in the underlings, always ready to condescend or shame, and always ready for some kind of handout. It's painful to have been taken advantage of. And they would be continuing it if they could. We could still get contacted by them or their grown kids because they are in town and want us to give them lunch or a place to stay. Those communications will be ignored in the future, but it brings up the pain of being used.

Anonymous said...

That's so true- I was describing how the session views it when you leave the church (sort of a "hand-off" to another session) to my therapist, and she said that it sounded like I was talking about property.

Anonymous said...

Yes, even though our previous experience with Biblical/nouthetic counseling had been terrible, I blamed that more on the RP pastor who counseled us, and I decided to trust this PCA pastor, as described above. I didn't understand the problems with Biblical counseling as I do now. It is a counterfeit, and allows church leaders access to intimacy with people that they can then use to their advantage if they are inclined to do that. In the past I thought that they received some good training in seminary toward counseling- and they are happy to let you think that what they do with you is superior and safer for you as a Christian than an actual trained therapist. It's so unsafe for people as they struggle with trauma from the past and other issues. I thought that the other elders would hold a pastor accountable if he violated confidentiality, but that type of counseling doesn't even require it.

BatteredRPSheep said...

I had this exact experience. I told the RP church I was leaving and I started attending a different church. About six months into the leaving process, I met an elder for lunch and he asked about my new church, then suggested that the RP session should meet with my new leaders so that they could "transfer me properly". I was pretty disgusted by that. My new church leaders would have been disgusted by that, too.

BatteredRPSheep said...

"It's hard, because once one accepts their claim that they are elders, as described in scripture, it becomes hard to argue with their interpretation."

This is really the crux of it. When you are born/raised in the RP church, you've never heard any other perspectives, and you have only heard their interpretation of scripture. It is extremely hard to convince yourself, and even less likely, them, that their view is inaccurate.

Even something so simple as qualifications of elder. The Bible says, "having children who believe". Whether this is an absolute qualification or not, I believe that the RP church likes to pick and choose what qualifications apply, so, for example, "man" is an absolute qualification, but "not pugnacious" is aspirational, meaning that an elder can be narcissistic as long as he desires to grow out of it.

As you've pointed out, the RP eldership is all about the perks - obedience, honor, power, based on their "position" without the requisite righteousness and deeds - tending the flock, washing the feet, service.

We've seen this in RP family relationships, too. Parents who expect to be showered with love and admiration because of their position. In other words, "I put food on the table and provided a roof over your head, therefore I deserve to be treated with love and respect, despite the fact I gave you neither."

BatteredRPSheep said...

Their interpretation is compartmentalized. The Neocalvinists believe that the Great Commission was given to the apostles, not the "church", and they are careful to differentiate, but they don't realize that there is nothing in scripture that ties elder to apostle. In the OT, prophet, priest and king were completely separate roles. In the NT, there is no expectation that apostle, prophet, teacher, elder,... are coupled. Perhaps an apostle is all of the above, but that doesn't mean that a prophet is a teacher/elder, or that a teacher is an elder, or that an elder is a deacon. That's why traditions like "apostolic succession" creep in because the pastors want to be treated like apostles, but have no Biblical basis.

Anonymous said...

That's some narcissistic grandiosity right there. 1 Corinthians 4:8-13. Imagine "apostolic successors" desiring that sort of treatment.
What's even crazier is that some of them actually think they ARE persecuted like this.

BatteredRPSheep said...

It reminds me of the cruel twisting that happens in Animal Farm where the pigs are accused of taking the best food:

“Comrades!' he cried. 'You do not imagine, I hope, that we pigs are doing this in a spirit of selfishness and privilege? Many of us actually dislike milk and apples. I dislike them myself. Our sole object in taking these things is to preserve our health. Milk and apples (this has been proved by Science, comrades) contain substances absolutely necessary to the well-being of a pig. We pigs are brainworkers. The whole management and organization of this farm depend on us. Day and night we are watching over your welfare. It is for your sake that we drink the milk and eat those apples.

The point is that "servant" is twisted to mean master, and "sacrifice" is twisted to mean being paid to read the Bible and study - the same thing they command us to do for free. Just like the qualifications are twisted to mean, "whomever your leaders determine to be qualified and parade in front of you for approval".

Anonymous said...

Sacerdotalism definition: -religious belief emphasizing the powers of priests as the essential mediators between God and humankind. --the system, spirit, or methods of the priesthood therein.

Yet God is clear that there is only one mediator between us and Him, the Lord Jesus Christ.

There is just no soft peddling the fact that the RPCNA is teaching a different gospel and Galatians 1 applies.

Leave NAPARC and don't look back.

Anonymous said...

The painful truth of our story is that of a "spiritual father" who used that idea to exploit. This pastor wanted all of the loyalty and benefits of that, without giving genuine care and love. The words were enticing to someone whose earthly father had been brutal and narcissistic, but the whole idea was really just used as a way to never really accept the "son" as an equal. Such a twisting of the mentoring that you describe.

Anonymous said...

Raising my hand as one who fell for the earnest appearance...

Anonymous said...

It is tragic, and sad. (Trigger warning- child abuse)


One of the very first things I remember being taught after coming into the RP church, through child training studies, was to assume my God-given authority as a parent. Then we learned various abusive ways to implement that. "Children are a blessing from the Lord" was a very appealing message to people who had been scapegoats in their families growing up. It has the appearance of a great attitude toward kids and holds out hope. Then this hyper-authoritarian teaching gets slipped in and off you go, pounding your kids into submission, while pastor's kids get away with whatever and are actually rather neglected.
We had to learn that our kids were not our property or even "ours" at all. Our "teachers" would have agreed to that in principal, but they wanted our kids to not be a problem, or to be scapegoatable. The credit for our survival as a family rests on God alone.

BatteredRPSheep said...

This is tragic and we are struggling with similar issues with our children and the damage done by following RP childrearing practices. There are some fantastic secular books out there, but we also believe that our children will need counseling as they work through the natural feelings of worthlessness caused by shame-based discipline.

Anonymous said...

That NAPARC leaders on mass engage is hyper authoritarianism and sacerdotalism is beyond doubt. Practical point being is that a RPCNA or any NAPARC Reformed pastor as well as the Reformed session/elder are de facto priest's and indeed seen as "essential mediators between God and humankind." This is completely contrary to 1 Tim 2:5 (among many other verses) and the very Gospel itself.

Although they will deny all this, the proof is in the pudding and the facts/fruit indeed prove it.

"But if we or even an angel from heaven should preach to you a different gospel......let them be accursed." Galatians Chapter 1

Yep, for a tribe that takes extreme pride in it's embracing of the 5 Solas of the Reformation there is indeed just no sugar coating this blatant Achilles heel of NAPARC. For them it is not "Christ Alone", in fact the overwhelming emphasis is not a Christ centric approach, but rather a Session centric view of all of life.

Anonymous said...

Woah, this BITE model is interesting. Are there any blog posts that contrast the RPCNA with a mild cult?

Anonymous said...

It sounds like the elders wanted one last grasp of control. I am sorry you had to experience that.

BatteredRPSheep said...

I would classify RPCNA as a "mild" cult. I try to walk the fine line of saying that they are "cultish" and in danger of losing the gospel, but I haven't made any claims that the RPCNA is not a church. It's hard because much of what is written is okay, but when I've seen the church processes and courts, it seems that, especially at the lower levels, there is little concern for judicial process.